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> If AI designs a terawatt fusion plant, then of course we're going to meticulously pore over every detail

But suppose some future holy grail AI can do much more than that.

Suppose it could find a cure for cancer, fix the climate, build fusion plants, Dyson spheres and so on.

But nobody can understand anymore how any of it works. We just ask and then trust the AI to deliver (as it always has).

Isn't it fun to imagine how life would look like in that scenario?

We would probably no longer care about code, engineering or even physics and mathematics among other things. We would probably mainly care about


This is how most people already live.

The average person doesn't know how the medication they take works, the mechanics of climate and climate change, how the energy they consume is generated, etc.


In the case of medicine it goes deeper than that, sometimes nobody really understands why a medication works.

That cant be true, theres a paper trail of sign offs of the most likely people to understand the probabilities.

Please define proof of "really understands why a medication works"

It reminds me of fynemans why do magnets work. Yeah sure does anyone really understand anything? Its metaphors all the way down


Yet it takes rigorous years long tests to understand effects of a medication.

Yes, and understanding the effects of a medication is different to understanding how the medication has that effect.

The medical field as a whole isn’t generally interested in understanding how medication, only in empirical measuring and qualify the effects.


> The medical field as a whole isn’t generally interested in understanding how medication, only in empirical measuring and qualify the effects.

I don't think this is quite correct. I mean many practitioners of medicine will have the attitude of ... "if it works, it works". And that's perfectly reasonable.

But if you understand the mechanism of action of a drug (or other treatment), it (often) makes it easier to improve a drug.

So ... some sectors of the "medical field" understandably care only about empirical results. But other sectors would prefer to understand what's going on.


>The medical field as a whole isn’t generally interested in understanding how medication, only in empirical measuring and qualify the effects.

This is nonsense. Most, if not all professionals are interested in mechanism of action, but without Ms Frizzle, it is extremely difficult and expensive (time and money wise) to figure that out. So while the labs run the experiments with the very limited funding they have, we make do with using the second best thing we have, which are statistics.


Yes and no: understanding means to know the relationships to the underlying system.

When you already know that system well, those effects are often just a matter of simple inference.

Just like here: most people are actually perfectly capable to foresee the detrimental effects of abandoning understanding.

Living in a fantasy world of "magic" makes you dependent upon your caretakers, who provide the ingredients.


its a good thing that our lack of understanding of medicines has never killed anybody or have had any intended consequences

oh wait


An major school of German sociology places this at the core of its theory. According to this theory, modern societies are characterised in particular by the fact that individual subsystems of society reduce the complexity of their own (sub)system to the other systems to enable them to act at all; they fulfil what is called an "Entlastungsfunktion" (relief function). Prominent representatives of this school of thought are Max Weber, Arnold Gehlen and Niklas Luhmann.

In their view, it is modern institutions (public and private) which, as supra-individual entities, have long since become autonomous systems. The fact that the individual office-holders are human beings, meanwhile, is of little significance.

Hannah Arendt, in her theory of totalitarianism, attributed the effectiveness of both Nazi and Stalinist policies of extermination to the largly moral indifference of bureaucracy as a system.

In this sense, the task of controlling AI is a variation on the problem of harnessing a complex society consisting mainly of autonomous subsystems. This is a problem which has increasingly challenged humanity already for quite a long time. And it has been very difficult so far, even without AI ...


I'm going to say it's how everybody already lives, because while somebody may know some of those things there is nobody who knows them all.

Very interesting point. I think the counter-argument to that is that the complex modern society is based on somewhat “deterministic” systems, in that, even if a single decision or event isn’t rationally explainable in the moment, at least in the aftermath, it typically becomes understandable, maybe even reproducible. There is someone, somewhere, capable of explaining, maybe even multiple someones.

We don’t generally have that insurance with LLMs/AI, yet?


There are huge systems supporting that ignorance though. And where those systems are breaking down people do care.

This is a very Western take though.

The problem with "ignorance" in Western countries (particularly the US right now) is that it's very common for people who don't know to believe they know and form ignorant opinions that they often want to be applied society-wide in some way. You can see this with everything from climate change to vaccines.

In much of the world, even in middle income countries, people are comparatively poor and, in my experience living abroad in such countries for many years, much less concerned with "understanding" and forming opinions about everything under the sun. It doesn't mean they don't value education and are opposed to development/progress, but it does mean that they don't question whether the vaccine they're taking is the product of a conspiracy, think too deeply about why the river is flooding more often, etc.

They just deal with life the best they can and are more focused on supporting their families, enjoying what they can, etc.

Culture and religion play into this. The way secular and Judeo-Christian people look at the world is very different than, say, Buddhists, Muslims, Fulani tribespeople, and so on.


the average person doesn’t have an internal monologue

can’t use a computer (they’ve had like 30 years now in first world developed countries)

many can’t even use their smart phone beyond calling, texting (many can’t type well), and doom scrolling (they get addicted to drugs, gambling, and other LCD activities)

many read at a 6th grade level. most can’t even calculate tip in their head.

meanwhile, the same smartphone can give them access to literally any information and knowledge the world in seconds. and now gemini can explain stuff since most ppl can barely read or think.

it’s sad out there.

but more importantly. it’s not my problem.


> but more importantly. it’s not my problem.

But it absolutely is! Those people can and do vote.


Here's the thing: nobody is stopping you from putting in the time to understand all that. The problem is, nobody has that much time, and we get hungry. And so we want the community to move with us, spend the time the same way as we do, to ensure value. We are all saying: we want someone else, others, to put in that time for us. The truth is, we all want quality, and value is closely related.

I can almost guarantee you the first time you show cancer symptoms, you won't care whether the cure came from an AI or human's understanding. But we haven't seen that, so we can't make the judgement call.


> But nobody can understand anymore how any of it works. We just ask and then trust the AI to deliver (as it always has).

> Isn't it fun to imagine how life would look like in that scenario?

This is horrifying to me.


Rightfully so.

People succumb to defeatism and acquiesce to regressing to zoo animals, with AI as their caretakers.

They simply cannot help but to apply the economic gauge of short term profits to value the alternatives.

Even though, obviously, here long term human survival and living conditions are at stake, necessitating an entirely different set of considerations.


Some of it has to do with the fact that many people pushed forward training themselves in a way they understood would better themselves for the future. They put in time, and now their sense of value is in question. They're forced to think about things like value (of life, themselves, and hopefully others), and the things they want to remain valuable in the future.

It's interesting to me that you only mentioned the people using 'AI' in the 'short-term' ways, and not the ones that use it to better themselves in the 'long-term' ways. You can spend your own time focusing on either usage, it's really up to you and your concerns. Either group's sense of value is what determines their behavior. Where they spend their time and thinking must be elsewhere, and you disagree with it. Who judges the quality of time spent? You do.

Is it more useful to think about self-improvement, and how to navigate the future in ways that might help you re-establish value of yourself, life, and others? Acquiring knowledge is a struggle, the author mentioned this. There is also Plato's Allegory of the Cave, which highlights some of that struggle, a resistance to change. And we're all limited by time, our genes, our station in life.

The only way to help anyone out of the cave, is to help them believe something different about themselves. To help them believe there is good reason to spend time going deeper into knowledge, or at the very least, allow others with the passion and station for it to do so.

If not for the very least reason that it keeps us 'in the loop' of some central idea behind intelligence (prediction?). Or because we feel it keeps us safer, as a fallback measure because we acknowledge we have to trust other's knowledge to exist.


We would care about having fun.

For some people, fun is doing physics and mathematics. So they are going to keep doing that.


> We would care about having fun.

For even more people fun is TikTok, Snap, Instagram -> sounds like a collapse of a civilization to me if you increase the ratio even more towards dancing kids sharing their content non-stop with no added value to the society


It's not fun, it's a physiological addiction, because we learned enough about our brains to hack dopamine and reward cycles for profit. It's literal abuse.

Before extrapolating that far, take a look at the frontier labs' own job boards (https://openai.com/careers/search/?). Isn't it curious that they are still recruiting human "Android Engineers", "Account Associates", "Consumer Marketing Leads" instead of automating them with their world-beating models?

You’re describing a world where no human being has any agency. Curing cancer etc. sounds great but we’d be losing something priceless in the exchange

Ian M Banks covers this in great detail in his science fiction books. Highly recommended.

You can't just leave us hanging like that!


Successfully neutralized by AI, I suppose.

I’m reminded of themes from the Hyperion Cantos! Maybe my mind is over-connecting, but it’s not the first time I’ve drawn similarities in the last few years.

It’s terrifying to me to think we’d let AI make things for us we never understand. Like livestock not knowing how auto-feeders dispense their daily food were built and appeared, they just gladly eat until…


Our best philosophers have already pondered this question, and showed us the answer in the form of humans on the Axiom starship in WALL-E.

I think the weirdest part of that scenario is that science might become something closer to archaeology

The term you are looking for is hermeneutics.

But where are the “cure for cancer” papers for it to ingest and then give to us?

> We would probably no longer care about code, engineering or even physics and mathematics among other things. We would probably mainly care about

… about what?


It's about as fun, and as realistic, as imagining magical ponies and people with superpowers?

This is such an incredibly naive and absurd vision; we've already proven that humans are very often very bad at implementing other humans' good ideas. There's nothing that AI is likely to bring that will improve this discernment.


> Isn't it fun to imagine how life would look like in that scenario?

Look at the financially desolate subcultures with no option for advancement or dignified life.

That is the goal and that is how it will lool like, if the tech CEO managed to gain the power they want.


Those subcultures are like that because they are small. If that became the lot of most people, society would look very different. The choice would be between Fully Automated Luxury Communism and Oligarchic Hellscape.

STEM will be considered "historical studies" in an AI-ruled future.


- Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.

- But when, Lord, when?!

- Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.

- Ahhhh.


> - Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.

Shouldn't this one be "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise?"


You're right of course, that is the grammatically correct way. I guess I was dangerously forcing my poetic license.

But it's still a good example of where a comma (or lack of) can make all the difference.


DON'T TRY

- Bukowski

I've loved that from the moment I stumbled upon it.

Both funny and serious at the same time.


I am working on vorfract, a Voronoi voxel world which uses Voronoi cells as voxels instead of the regular cubic ones.

It's an early version so many (if not most) things that would be in a game are still missing at the moment (though planned on paper).

One interesting thing is that because the Voronoi voxels are so malleable, things like round or hollow worlds are a pretty natural outcome.

In parallel to working on it, I've been mostly using it to build and improve my own voxel castle with a pointy roof, slanted walls, custom built stairs, tables, chairs and all those nice things.

In the last update I added a CRT filter and some pixelation options as I find that appealing. As for the future (maybe as the next thing?), I guess I'd probably like to add the ability to build less blocky things like round towers (or flower vases!), but that is still very much a work in progress.

The Web version (WebGL) is completely free (and will stay that way):

https://jazzprogramming.itch.io/vorfract


I was thinking of something similar.

Waxing poetic, it's been a while since the wheel was invented and we've gone through a lot since then, yet the rich are still rich and the poor are still poor and the loved are still loved and the loveless still loveless.

Would one GPU data center/person make a difference? Probably not, but it could be quite fun to have your own personal genie. And then we get used to it.

Still, I'm not sure if most people care to make the distinction between technology (a rocket promising to reach for the stars) and the human condition (has it ever changed since the dawn of time?).


Love it, such a novel idea!

Honestly, as a long time Voronoi enthusiast, the idea of turning a regular grid into a Voronoi diagram is kind of obvious and I admit that this is definitely something that I would like to have come up with myself, but the idea never occurred to me.

The implementation is obviously pretty complex though. And I remember trying to get into regular Go several times along the years and I've always found it very difficult to grasp it (the computer thoroughly beat me every single time!) and I lost the motivation.

I read your tutorial pages, but I learn best by doing so I guess only playing for some significant amount of time will actually help me have a more than skin deep understanding of the game.

I do wish there was a Windows desktop version as the web version is eating 90% of my laptop's CPU when playing against the bot.


Thanks! I think that the high CPU utilization is probably the bot itself. It's a full-blown neural net running in-browser, so it's definitely a resource hog. If you ever play against a human performance should be much better (though please let me know if that's not the case).


Sometimes I'm taken aback by the visceral reaction some people have when their spider sense detects LLM impurities in the writing.

I read that same sentence (and the whole article, which I loved) and it didn't trigger anything in me.

It reminds me a bit of the OMG GMOs! craze people used to have a while back (and might still have?).


4 comments to heap your scorn on someone's work and what you don't understand. And you say their work is useless.


my scorn is not for this person's work but for the abomination of a programming language that made it possible


One thing that always comes to mind when I read articles like this is that, suppose he's right and the economic value of 8 billion people becomes close to zero at some point because of AI or something else:

What will 8 billion people be then doing with their time?

Will they be watching Netflix all day in the future?

Or building their dream castle & kingdom in Minecraft instead of IRL?


I am working on vorfract, a voronoi voxel world. I've always found the shapes generated by voronoi diagrams so interesting and I quite like the aesthetic.

What new ideas am I thinking about?

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of things left to discover about voronoi diagrams, but for the time being, I'm mainly exploring what's possible to build by using voronoi cells as voxels and devising various tools for cutting them.

Since they're convex polyhedra, almost any shape is possible (in principle, if not in practice) by combining several cells.

What I find particularily interesting is that a solid 3D world can emerge from just a collection of points arranged in different patterns.

https://jazzprogramming.itch.io/vorfract


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