What does the one have to do with the other? If I tell you I committed a crime and an independent investigator tells you I committed a crime, why would you need to know my income and outlays to decide whether I can commit crimes?
I have never seen an AI or a human produce a false proof without explicitly using weird meta programming tricks that are very suspicious. No "good faith" Lean proofs have every been shown faulty, to the best of my knowledge. While the risk is non-zero, many of the AI companies are also trying to find bugs in the Lean kernel, so it is becoming very well stress-tested.
What does verbal violence mean non-hyperbolically to you?
>Verbal abuse (also known as [...] verbal violence [...]) is a type of psychological abuse that involves the use of oral or written language directed to a victim. Verbal abuse can include the act of harassing, labeling, insulting, scolding, rebuking, or excessive yelling towards an individual.
I'm sorry for this verbal abuse you'll now receive, as I'm disagreeing with you, but it's really hard to see "rebuking" as verbal abuse, I think that page might need a pass or two to make it a bit more objective.
Just read this interview[1] the other day that contends that the blue collar workers, or at least their union leaders, are thrilled about the data center boom. There are loads of these projects underway and they show no sign of stopping, so the fact that it's only work for a few years per building hardly matters. Plus, the pay is great because the projects have to fight each other for labor. It also says that localities competed for these projects because of the substantial tax revenue they'll bring in for the communities.
Separately, while electrity usage is a valid concern with respect to pollution, data centers are not really driving electric costs up for residents, with (maybe?) a couple exceptions. Noise is likewise a non-issue by-and-large with (definitely existent) rare exceptions. And the water usage issue is totally invented; data centers use a tiny fraction of the water other industries that would otherwise occupy industrially-zoned land use.
You didn't mention it, but the interview also contends that the "this will take our jobs" angle that gets passed around here as a reason isn't on anybody's mind.
Instead, it seems that the AI companies used NDAs to prevent localities from efficiently pricing their deals. That's obviously sketchy on its own and worthy of attack, plus as a bonus it prevents governments from making statements to clarify that the populist narratives that surround the things and are, bluntly, false.
This is a very long interview, and I really don't think it's as rosy for AI as you're painting it. Jasmine makes it clear throughout that people are very concerned about data centers in their areas, and AI in general.
From the comments on that post, Rachel says:
> With all due respect to Nate and Jasmine I think they are overthinking why people hate data centers - it’s a fairly direct answer. People hate data centers because they are a tangible manifestation of a technology that is expected to take away their jobs and lifestyle, mess with their societal place and sense of self, and uglify their neighborhoods and the natural world, all while providing little obvious benefit to the regular person and the tantalizing prospects of all the weird elites they hate the most becoming brains in a jar who lord over them forever.
I read that comment as well at the time and was taken aback. After such a lengthy discussion where Jasmine went and talked to the people doing the disagreeing over multiple weeks and reported her findings, Rachel replies that no, this is wrong, her presumably pre-existing belief is correct, and she cites nothing at all in support of this. Due respect seemed lacking despite claims to the contrary.
Likewise, I am taken aback that you, having apparently read this lengthy interview to find it in disagreement with my summary, elected instead to quote Rachel's unsupported comment dismissing the whole thing. Why not just quote the journalist disagreeing with me instead of some rando disagreeing with her? Does Rachel have a reputation that I'm unaware of?
I feel like we read two different articles. Both Nate and Jasmine think the outlook for AI looks grim. They both think that the locals are right to protest, they think that the concern about AI and its environmental impact is real, they both think that AI is politically toxic and SV is out of touch.
Meanwhile, your comment downplays all of the legitimate concerns that Jasmine discusses and worse, even invents concerns to downplay as if Jasmine had reported on them. In particular, you said that noise is a non-issue – that's not discussed at all in the interview (CMD+F "noise" – zero results).
You said that data centers "are not really driving electric costs up for residents," but Jasmine doesn't say that at all. Instead, she says that power and electricity are the most serious of everyone's environmental concerns, and that electricity rates going up is just one of the concerns that motivates opposition.
You said that the "they will take our jobs" argument is not on anybody's mind, which is literally false. Jasmine says job displacement wasn't the dominant explanation that people gave for opposing local data centers, but they both repeatedly discuss job displacement. Jasmine even quotes people she interviewed as saying "my boss keeps making me use AI, I have to say that I’m using AI or people won’t resource my project."
You said that NDAs prevented governments from clarifying "bluntly false" narratives, but that's, at best, cherry-picking what Jasmine was saying. You're right that NDAs were used and officials couldn't correct rumors about deals or water usage, but the interview does not say that the concerns people had were just straight up false. She notes that they had real concerns like grid strain, gas generation (from the power plants they're putting on data center property), ugly facilities, temporary jobs, subsidies, secrecy, and an unequal distribution of the benefits.
> Likewise, I am taken aback that you, having apparently read this lengthy interview to find it in disagreement with my summary, elected instead to quote Rachel's unsupported comment dismissing the whole thing. Why not just quote the journalist disagreeing with me instead of some rando disagreeing with her? Does Rachel have a reputation that I'm unaware of?
I find it strange that you're putting more stock in a substack journalist from the Bay area who went to Wisconsin to figure out why people are doing something, than the people who live there and are doing that thing. Do the people who live in the places where data centers are going up have no value to their opinions? Does Rachel need her own Substack before we can take her bonafides seriously?
>even invents concerns to downplay as if Jasmine had reported on them. In particular, you said that noise is a non-issue – that's not discussed at all in the interview (CMD+F "noise" – zero results).
Huh? How about CMD+F on the comment I replied to? My comment was intended to argue against that, not to summarize a source. I cited the interview towards A.) blue collar workers are getting a good deal B.) localities are getting a lot of tax revenue in return C.) people don't oppose data centers out of fear for their jobs D.) people are primarily upset over secrecy caused by NDAs E.) those NDAs also prevent governments from fighting misinfo.
Separately, I argued that the electricity price, water, and noise issues are not actual problems. I didn't intend to imply that the interview proved that, and, in fairness to you, I could have made that more clear.
Per your objection to C. above, poor phrasing on my part. I meant "not top-of-mind".
>they had real concerns like grid strain, gas generation[...], ugly facilities, temporary jobs, subsidies, secrecy, and an unequal distribution of the benefits.
I didn't say these things were false. I mentioned pollution and subsidies as real, and I highlighted secrecy as the primary issue. Otherwise, I was responding to the parent's claims. My point was never that every complaint one could make about data centers is unfounded; it was that the complaints I was replying to were (except for job loss, which I do believe is a legitimate concern, but which I don't think many agree with me about).
>I find it strange that you're putting more stock in a substack journalist from the Bay area who went to Wisconsin to figure out why people are doing something, than the people who live there and are doing that thing.
??? How is it wrong to trust a person who interviewed people about what those people believe over someone who does not even claim to be involved? How about, instead of a substack, she provide any reason at all we should take her word over someone who talked to people who live there? As far as I can tell, you give the commenter as much credibility as the journalist because she agrees with you and lets you say "bingo". You can find my epistemics as strange as you like, they sure beat that.
People directly criticize LLM code generators all the time on this site. It's all over the place. You are almost certainly being routinely banned because you write low-effort comments that violate the site guidelines and negatively impact the conversation.
As a guy who presumably has a lot less experience in security than you, I feel rude even bringing it up: surely you're aware of red teaming? This isn't a novel technique invented for AI- IBM has a page about it, it's what all the best DEF CON talks are about, it's the opening scene of Sneakers, it's the point of CtF games.
The companies are begging to be regulated for this reason and have been doing so for years. HN's response is generally that this is performative for marketing or seeking regulatory capture or haha anthropic you get what you ask for. Maybe the cynics are right, but there's really nothing inconsistent about the naive view here, once you factor in race dynamics and obligations to investors.
> The companies are begging to be regulated for this reason and have been doing so for years
Regulations are rules that you force on a market, but the actors in the market should not be assumed to be all operating against the regulations before they come into play. Said in other words, these companies don't need to wait for regulation to not destroy the world, if that's truly what they think will happen.
If your response to an argument is inb4, you don't get to tell somebody else they're not putting in enough effort to provide substance. Also, I brought up race dynamics before your inb4, so even if anticipation counted as more than a shallow dismissal, you didn't meet that bar.
I really don't understand what's happening here lately such that 15-year-old accounts are behaving so poorly. This is the first time you've said 'inb4' in what I can only guess is thousands of comments over a decade and a half. If you don't care about the standards here anymore, why stick around and make things worse for the rest of us? Is there some other draw than quality of conversation?
I wrote something earlier to the same effect and wound up deleting it because it let too much frustration through. I am frustrated, but you don't deserve the brunt of that. Sorry if that's still coming through.
Someone else will do it is the lowest form of justification for any bad behavior. Regarding the rest of your judgement of the quality of the comments that's why we have votes. Some of my comments for this 15 years are downvoted and others upvoted and some are even flagged and it lets me learn what the crowd agrees with and not and I reflect from it and you can see the average to judge for yourself what the crowd thinks of my contributions. I appreciate your answer but it's one person's opinion, as is mine.
This has nothing to do with agreement with the crowd, and it's not a matter of difference of opinion between us. There are guidelines here[1] that are not being met. A conscious effort was made to prevent this site from being an echo chamber and to prevent it from descending into entropy and the approach you describe here directly contradicts this. The crowd is very often wrong. If you are getting downvoted for incorrectness or disagreement, the crowd is definitely wrong. Please don't change your mind over downvotes! That's what the conversation is for.
> The companies are begging to be regulated for this reason and have been doing so for years
They can stop doing a thing they claim should be regulated. You dont need to be regulated and forced to do the thing you consider right, especially when you are the primary one collecting the money to do the bad thing.
They could train ai for pro-social purposes, they dont here. They could make it useful for worker, they intentionally try to harm workers. And then pretend "it just happened".
Tobacco company says "we are launching a new product that will cause cancer and kill people. It's highly addictive so we expect widespread uptake. We think it is crucial that regulation be introduced for mandatory regular cancer tests so that people can be streamlined into treatment faster when they get sick"
I think Anthropic employees think that their product is more like opiates -- highly dangerous, but with a large potential benefit when applied correctly.
I don't know what OpenAI employees were thinking, but thankfully it looks like they're thinking again.
Is this new behavior from them? I haven't looked at their free chat offering in a minute, but I thought they always had them close behind paid tier, often with essentially equal products that made it weird for them to sell the paid tier for chat.
You can't even pick 5.6 luna on the chat app with a paid subscription. It just gives you sol (or use older models) with what seems like basically as much usage as you want. And sol is considerably smarter than luna.
All of this is of pretty minor importance though. You can't read as many tokens as a subcription can produce so more chat is not the value add nor super important.
I mean there are literally so many providers for free chat if you are willing to use several seperate apps.
The real value in these subs is using codex cli, much like the real point of anthropic subs is using claude code. Because agentic work actually does require a lot of tokens.
You can't use that meme argument at the beginning and mention that it is perfectly possible to boycott the other company at the end. The whole point of the meme is that participating in society is unavoidable, right?
And I don't think you can use "one step away from" a meme arguments at all. Pattern matching to a cartoon is not a great tool for this in the first place, and once you've acknowledged that the pattern doesn't even match, what's the point?
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